Purpose-Driven Strategies in Marketing: Insights from John Dye

Podcast Episode #14 of Scroll Sessions with Hosts Dan Page and Shane Hickenlooper

In this captivating episode of Scroll Sessions, we had the pleasure of hosting John Dye, a veteran in the field of marketing, particularly known for his contributions to cause-based marketing. Hosted by Dan Page and Shane Hickenlooper, this episode delves deep into John’s journey and his unique approach to marketing.

Early Beginnings and the Shift to Marketing

John’s story begins with an unexpected turn. Initially aspiring to teach English, his experiences in Taiwan on a mission trip and his academic pursuits at BYU led him to a different path – the world of marketing. His first job might have been as a policy and procedure analyst for an insurance company, but it was just the start of a vibrant career in marketing.

The Agency Life and Early Days of Internet Marketing

John’s real marketing journey began at Fluid, a small agency in Northern Utah. Working with big clients like Orbit Irrigation Products, John got a taste of various marketing forms, from catalogs and print to the emerging world of websites. This period was a significant learning curve, as John navigated the early and somewhat rudimentary days of internet marketing.

The Power of Social Media in Business

A pivotal moment in John’s career was his realization of the potential of social media in business-to-consumer communication. At Fluid, he spearheaded initiatives that leveraged social media for marketing, setting the agency apart with its innovative approach. This foresight into the power of social media was a game-changer, opening doors to working with top-tier clients and larger projects.

Cause-Based Marketing with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

One of the most impactful phases of John’s career was his work with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Here, John was involved in various campaigns, including the iconic “I’m a Mormon” campaign and the “Meet the Mormons” film. These projects were not just about marketing; they were about changing perceptions and breaking stereotypes.

The Evolution and Impact of the “I’m a Mormon” Campaign

The “I’m a Mormon” campaign was a landmark initiative in changing the global perception of the Church. It showcased the diversity within the Church, highlighting members from various backgrounds and lifestyles. This campaign, according to John, widened the tent stakes of the Church, showing that it’s not about how you look but what you believe.

The Transition to doTERRA and a Return to Cause-Based Work

After 12 years at Fluid, John moved to doTERRA, a leading multi-level marketing company specializing in essential oils. While the work was rewarding, John felt a yearning for more cause-driven projects. This led him back to Radiant Foundation, where he is currently working on Skylight, a project aimed at helping youth connect with divinity for better mental health.

Work-Life Balance and Redefining Success

Throughout his career, John has learned the importance of work-life balance and redefining success. He candidly shares his personal experiences, emphasizing the importance of family and the dangers of letting work consume your life.

Closing Thoughts

John’s journey through the world of marketing is a testament to the power of purpose-driven strategies. His work, particularly in cause-based marketing, highlights the impact well-crafted campaigns can have on society. His insights provide valuable lessons for marketers and entrepreneurs alike, emphasizing the importance of passion, innovation, and balance in one’s career.



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[Music] welcome to scroll sessions I’m Shane


hicken Looper and I’m joined by my co-founder Dan Paige together we’re the brains behind scroll a digital marketing


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that subscribe button to stay updated on the latest episodes of the scroll sessions welcome guys to scroll sessions


we have John Dy in the house today very excited to talk with you great to be with you you’ve got you’ve got an


interesting background I mean everything from you know it’s mostly been in marketing but you really with Mission


driven companies you’re you’re a family man with kids and you’re I feel like


have a big spiritual presence too and it’s been kind of a part of your your mission at least as long as I’ve like


watched you so it’s we’re excited to have you on the podcast today excited to just dive into your history and where


like where did things start for you I guess is where we should start how did


we get into marketing yeah no great great question um you know I I started


off at Ricks back when it was Ricks guys so ask your parents now BYU BYU Idaho my


my Uncle Rick Paige was the vice president Rick’s college so I don’t know if you ever ran into him it’s no


relation but they always used to joke because he was up in up in administration and was there during the


transition between Rick and U very cool very cool yeah so I was believe it or


not late 80s late 80s up there um but you know interestingly enough I I always


had a desire to teach English I served my mission uh mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to


Taiwan and and you know love the country love the people as most people do when


you serve you know a country and a people yeah and so decided really to focus on English when I was at Ricks but


um as time went on things changed uh but I ended up going to BYU from RX um so


ended there finished graduating with an undergraduate and graduate in English


graduate degree Masters in English but just didn’t work out right from a from a


perspective of teaching English um business really was where it took me so my um occupational life though has


been a long and circuitous route I started it as probably the most boring


job ever a policy and procedure analyst for an insurance company wow yeah does


sound I think I put the whole audience to sleep just by saying that that word


right um that’s awesome but luckily luckily the the the company was bought


out by a larger company in Chicago and so I was able to kind of uh do my own


thing for a little bit then and that’s really when my days at fluid started fluid is uh basically a small agency in


Northern um Davis County and we had one big client at the time which was Orbit


Irrigation products you might be familiar with them very familiar drip line systems exactly all of that


underground I think that whole building has for lease right now oh is it really is that just well no no no it’s Lake L


like the big orbit building yes like they have a big four leas sign on the building I wonder if they move their


like their whole Workforce or something why any drip lines so that’s not good I know I know well I’m sure they’re still


in business but like maybe they just miss somewhere else yeah but but through that we were able to do work for Walmart


for Lowe’s for Home Depot and and so we got a lot of other things going but that was really the start of my age agency in


my marketing career and um you know back in the day guys though this is pre-


internet almost yeah what what kind of marketing existed I know exactly what what even was there so a lot of


cataloges a lot of print a lot of um other stuff that we would do but you


know websites were emerging right they were still kind of the 90s just all text before theom exactly and the AOL dialup


right that you’d have to wait three minutes for and I I I’m I’m young I still remember that sound and I think I


will remember the dialup sound for the rest of my life that could be your ringtone I like that yeah I like that um


but uh and and that kind of goes to the next phase I would say in my career which was social media um you know


Twitter was early on the scene Facebook I remember back in the days you had to have a


doedu um extension on your email oh wow you had Facebook back then yeah so so


this was this was just the burgeoning time of of social media and so but but I


I think I was one of the first in the valley or I like to think I was that that thought a lot of people are using it for Consumer to Consumer friend to


friend or peerto peer but how does B Toc work you know how can businesses


actually leverage this and capitalize on this and so we were a very small agency


with not a lot of uniqueness we were a lot of commoditized offerings right hey graphic design hey web design hey print


design so I I kind of all went all in on on social media saying this is a way


that we could differentiate ourselves and so we started to pick up some local clients and and uh become the agency


that was known for that and so that was great one of our largest clients though at the time was the missionary


Department of the Church of Jesus Christ of latterday saints through Bonville Communications so bonnaville really is


the agency of record but we would help them with many of their yeah with many of the things they needed what were you


doing for marketing for missionaries like how did that work good question so so back in the day again guys this goes


back to when you were in diapers probably but they they did something called PSAs public service announcements


it was big on the radio and television so if you’re familiar with the family it’s about time campaign or any of those


other ones where you would see it’s about time Church Christ about exactly


yeah you could do the drop um those those were things we we were involved in but the PSA


specifically we had a lot of competition so it’s like free space it was federally


mandated that’s that over the a commercials on video or or radio only


had to give a certain amount of the time to PSAs and so it was a very competitive


space I guess you could say because it was technically free it was free space and so you had to think of up these


elaborate packages you would send to the station manager and other things and so


we would always create these great 3D boxes with lenticulars you know kind of the 3D things when you turn them Ju Just


ways to really stand out in in the from the crowd when we were trying to get placement for this and so so that was


really fun um and later the missionary Department evolve to direct marketing


campaigns right hey click on here to get a free copy of the Book of Mormon so we’d help with a lot of the online ads


that they do that way and um anyway moving along to about 2012 I’d been


president of of fluid for about 12 years at the time but loved loved loved what I


was doing with the missionary department and how I was able to be involved and they they were looking for somebody to


be the digital marketing director and I said man I would love that yeah sure and


even though I was president of of fluid I said you know I didn’t have a stakeholder or shareholder position it


it you had moved up to be president of the company at the time yeah we had about 20 people 20 to 25 we would


fluctuate depending on the time of year but uh but you know the cause-based stuff is really what revved my engine it


made me feel alive and and I thought wow that that would be awesome so we I I


went to boncom which only had 12 people at the time um now they’re gosh I want to say over 120 wow um but but that Year


in 2012 my first year there you might remember that’s when the Book of Mormon musical came out yep and Romney yeah was


running so that’s the year I started my mission same with me yeah was the Mormon


moment right in quotes so so we had to do a lot because everybody was asking


what do you know mitah a Mormon what do they believe yeah um and so we had to do


a lot of work around that so you might remember the I’m a Mormon campaign was huge it’s all that we I served in Europe


and it was all that we did and like I’m a cards I’m a Mormon videos was


like the main piece of my personal mission all of my I still have like this


little Shrine of all my stuff and uh I have all my I’m a Mormon cards because


I’m like man these are going to be worth something nowadays because it’s a swear word to use that right so I have like


all of those and we would go around and show the the long form movie came out in


2014 like the end of my mission but yeah so we’ll get there that M the Mormons okay yeah that was that was fun um but


yeah 2012 was interesting for us just because mitt and the Book of woman musical we did the the play Bill piece


do you remember that the book is always better yeah um you were part of that


yeah I wish I could say it was me there are a lot smarter people in that room than me but


um the group I was associated with thought through that and it was very I I will applaud the church because


traditionally they would walk away from that that was going to kind of be my next question wased it they embraced it


and were they embracing a lot of what you guys were going for um I would say because you were trying to do some


you presented plenty of ideas and we can get into some of the other cool ideas that you guys were a part of but like


this is definitely a catalyst at least in how the church marketed itself was the first time they really done


something this yeah I think really and and we would have people talking about us right we put cab Toppers on New York


City cabs and when you know back in the day before everyone had


smartphones cabs used to have their little LCD screens and we we would be in


there and so we we had people late night talk shows talking about this I’m a Mormon campaign what is this and you


know I’m trying to remember who it was he was a Jewish that’s why I’m trying to be careful ful of who I say it was


because I could get this wrong but he said he goes I wish I wish the Jewish


faith would would adopt something similar oh right yeah so any anyway just


uh some groundbreaking stuff and again kudos to the church for for taking a chance on it and luckily it worked out


and and everything worked well um the IM Mormon campaign continued for multiple years but I what I loved about that


though is it showed the breadth and depth of people who are members of the


church or who affiliate with the faith yeah right often times we think of


members of the church especially maybe pre 20102 is very cookie cutter right


yeah from a beard to hair to tattoos tattoos to just general lifestyle


decisions yeah being in a rock band all the things Brandon Flowers Jeremy Jones


The Tattooed Mormon all those people started to come onto the scene yeah and and I think really what what that showed


and what I like about that is it shows there’s a big tent and there’s a place


for everyone it it’s not based on how you look it’s based on what you believe


and not even prescriptive in what you believe right we we do believe there are parameters don’t get me wrong but but um


I think it started to widen our internal View and the external view of what a


member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint is and what they believe right and and who they can be so


so I love that about it it just really broadened I think some of those tent Stakes um but to your point we we kind


of moved along and I would say the next big thing that I did personally was Meet The Mormons the the feature film um


again that was very similar to im a Mormon but six of those put together into a feature featur link film yeah and


um you know what was so beautiful about that was I think it gave us an


opportunity to to really put on a for sure a national stage if not a world


stage who we are and what we believe right totally and and let’s be honest the majority of the people that saw that


film in a theater were members of the church yeah however I believe it had a


job to be done which wasn’t necessarily just missionary or for those not of our faith um you might remember that was


right after the prop eight issue in California which again looking back in


time I think there are multiple people who would say multiple things about that


but I I think it really took the air out of the balloon for a lot of members who who belong to the faith because we put a


stake in the sand on a on a social issue and we had to do something to I think


put air back into that balloon to say I’m proud to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and


um these are six represent Representatives who you know somebody who’s black somebody who comes from uh


Nepal you know a a woman who lives in South America that’s an MMA fighter


right or a boxer uh and it just showed the breadth and depth of who we are and


it gave a chance for people to say wow this this is what we believe and these


are certain people who represent us and I’m proud of that so I think it it served a very important mission in


making people proud of who they were again well I will say I did baptize someone on my mission that uh went and


saw The Book of Mormon musical oh good yeah and then uh she was big into theater was obsessed with it I served in


Arizona where everyone knows a Mormon and she asked her friends more about it


and we ended up teaching her and incredible so pretty interesting that that was the case you know yes but that


was a big thing where I was in Arizona cuz all the members were trying to really I think share that at the time


and I served YSA so almost all of them were trying to share yeah the uh the


film the film or the Mormon Message campaigns are trying to advocate for the


fact that like normal people are Mormon because I think for a long time the whole world just assumed that Mormons


were polygamists and you know all the s yeah all the all the stigma associated


with it and and even from and I I mean correct me if I’m wrong even before then there was a larger population of the


church even outside of more or less the United States and that’s only continued to get larger right since right so


absolutely yeah the stigma was like you’re all 1800s Mormons not yes not


2000s Mormons exactly what they remember is stuff from our history stuff from our past right yeah and and we have evolved


that’s that’s one thing I love too is the gospel it’s still being restored


right we hear that and what what we had in 1830 was not the same that as we have


today nor will it be the same in 5 to 10 years it’s the marketing program in the church exactly having to change Focus


always having to yes say hey don’t don’t focus on that old stuff let’s focus on the new let’s go let’s go to the new so


we after like boncom there’s a lot of stuff that you had done at boncom so you


had done stuff with i a Mormon campaign you also did stuff with giving machines there’s a couple other ideas that I


think went through you and the and the boncom team at the time what were some


of the other things that you I mean talk maybe a little bit more about the giving machines yeah yeah so the giving


machines as they exist today it’s it’s it’s interesting because they evolved out of the light the world campaign and


you might remember that from from when it started but literally back in 2014


which is the same year that Meet The Mormons came out um we did something in


conjunction with radiant um which is a non profit I’ll talk more about later um to we created a


world record live nativity right we broke the world record for live people participating in a in a live nativity


set and that was really the time I was first introduced to the power of influencers online influencers we had um


uh The Piano Guys we had Alex buer we had the Studio C crew we had the


gardener sisters some of these people are are you know have yeah yeah and vloggers just vloggers


upon vloggers who they were just starting to get a toe hold in the in the uh online scene at the time but people


would do daily videos with their kids or you know spouses that would do things together and so what we found out though


with that was number one the spectacle was the Press meaning


um press responded to more of the spectacle the the record-breaking Guinness Book of World Records piece


than than anything because we had two basically deliverables one was the event the second was the the resultant video


the official video but but we got press in Yahoo and all I can’t even remember


all the the national uh press Outlets who covered it but they they this was a


chance for us to to declare the importance of you know Christmas and the Savior and all those things that we care


so so passionate about so so it put it it shrouded or it it created kind of a


spectacle in in a very unique way number two though was um that the power of the


influencers we had and the official video that we have is doing very well


even to this day I I bet you guys wouldn’t guess it but we we get over 50,000 views every 48 Hours on that


video go and that’s during Christmas that’s not during Christmas year round


people are still talking about that video but what’s interesting and and


quite honestly that uh that that’s incredible in and of itself but the the influencers who were


there doing their own content and and just really elevating this to their their followers and their fans um really


had such an impact and that opened my eyes to the power of being able to elevate the voice of the individual


specifically member of the Church to be able to talk about their faith in a way that they feel comfortable about and


that’s brand Centric to to what they want to share yeah um and and I think


that’s that’s true missionary work to me is we shouldn’t be prescribing how people talk about the gospel because


what’s important to you is different than what’s important to you Shane and so and it’s different than me right I’m


an older person in the way that I think about things as much different but we can all do it in a in an appropriate way


for our personal brand sure and a way that’s true to the things that really ring true to us right why it’s important


to us and so that that really helped us understand wow to harness the power of


the influencer not only the influencer with a lot of followers but just the lay person that you know is on social media


but can share that so specifically with light the world the goal was to um to talk about ways to think


outside yourself during probably the most important time of of year as we see


it from a service perspective and so 25 days 25 ways something small that you


could do every day as simple as a smile to helping somebody cross the street to to whatever that active service is yeah


and share it and share it right online and do that and so from that though


emerg the idea of the giving machines which I think now has probably eclipsed


what the original idea for light the world was just from an awareness perspective yeah um you know somebody in


the office again not me somebody much smarter than me said you know traditional machines where you where you


get a pop or a candy bar or you know um you you it’s a transaction you put


something in you get something out usually for yourself exactly exactly I’m hungry I’m thirsty I want something yeah


his idea was well what if you put something in and you were able to get all the Tactical or excuse me tactile um


tangible tangible benefits of seeing something drop right those cards that drop but you’re giving to someone else


you’re able to give to somebody else that way and um the first year we did that we specifically did it in I believe


two locations maybe it was just one we did in one location in in Salt Lake City but the lines were out the door yeah


I’ve seen and then you’ve opened what you had one in New York City you had one you’ve had a couple internationally


haven’t you too yes so London the pH um Arizona always has one every year um


obviously Orum you know Square yeah yeah so it’s it’s grown last year they


started to grow again post pandemic in number of locations I I can’t remember the exact number this year but but um I


I was just talking to them the other day I want to say it’s it’s 30 plus and even


last year they started with a mobile giving machine where like in in the south


uh Southeast I think it is where they would go from Atlanta to somewhere in the Carolinas and then so so basically


two days at each location but what a great way to to talk about um the


importance of giving back and being able to experience that as a family right yeah yeah totally I think the church had


done a follow-up campaign about more or less number of goats uh number of like


sanitary kits Etc that were like given or I mean what were I guess maybe


explain to people what were the options in the giving machines yeah yeah good good question and I’ll answer your


question yeah we they always follow up it is the church the I believe the welfare department of the church that


that will talk about hey this year we raised this much in this location and


each location has multiple um nonprofits associated with it so they’ll literally


give you know those huge checks you see it you know sweep Stakes or something they’ll they’ll often do that because it


it’s a nice way to to to share what they’re doing um but yeah some of the


options I mean some of the biggest options you guys might remember but it’s buy a goat for somebody or a duck and


how much was it to buy a goat do you I want to say it was $80 okay and and the goal There Was You know to to show that


you know it’s not a meal for a day it’s it’s the old addage of teach a man to fish and and you feed him for a for life


you know giving them a goat they can do some they can sell the milk and they have the meat at the proper time right


so they can make cheese exactly there’s multiple things you can do that way and so Lawn Care exactly lawn care I need a


goat in my backyard right now yeah the African lawn care if you don’t want to mow their lawn you just put a steak in


the ground and the Goat circles ex yeah so um so it works out well but but yeah


they I mean United Way is always a big one but they traditionally they work through local nonprofits and then each


location also has two national traditionally so one’s usually a clean water um option and then and then oh


very interesting so it’s it’s beautiful in the fact that they try to rotate those local options every year so that


the church and the associated entities get to work with I mean it’s hard to choose who to work with right a lot of


needs in a lot of places exactly so why stay with the same people year after year let’s share the love


yeah I guess and part of the reason that I had asked that question is because when you do work for a church for


example because you you worked at boncom and the church was bong comm’s client is


that correct yes the the yes yeah so um but bonom was technically owned by the


church so you worked for the church right yeah um so uh what is a kpi when


you work for a church in marketing because I think a lot of times you know our kpi is what I want to get a I want


to get a lead and when you work for a church marketing department it’s like did we get a baptism but you can’t track


that so what what are your Capi yeah you know and you’ve I think hit the nail on


the head at the end of the day the goal is a soul right as as the church thinks


about it um what what does it take to get not only somebody baptized but to


come into Christ and that means much more than just you know baptism sure but


but how do how do you help uh bring people into the church and there are


obviously things associated with keeping people in the church as well right yeah retention because yeah you can’t you


can’t lead them through the front Corral and then the back gates open and you know they’re out the back so you know


traditionally as they look at it it it really is around people around headcount


how do we get people in and help them see the value in what the gospel can bring to their life and how do we keep


them active so they would kind of track uh analytically numbers rising in certain


areas that you’re running campaigns or right right so so and that was key for


us specifically in some of the early days around im a Mormon is trying different um areas of the country


specifically and I want to see Arizona yeah and yeah and looking at outdoor campaigns and radio campaigns Television


over the top uh digital campaigns Etc and yeah how do we bring people in what


are they clicking on what are they most interested in and what what keeps it what’s what’s sticky to them right when


they when they arrive at the side what are they most interested in is it family is it a belief in Jesus is it um hey I I


need help temporal help you know what are those key things that are that are needed well it’s really interesting


because like I think of I’m thinking of this also as a marketer but also as someone who served a mission too


especially during this time you may back me up on this but I felt like there was a definite


and I’m also comparing to like my ancestors that serve missions and their experiences there’s a lot more of an


emphasis I felt like on in in keeping track of the numbers and Reporting numbers and like from the very you know


you know all the way from just me as a single missionary all the way up top that numbers were very track and the


church has you know everything in its place you know everything is very much


tracked but I felt like there was a definite emphasis especially yeah during these campign I will say I feel like the


way I felt on my mission was like a celebrity because the Mormon Message was


going out so strong at the time like the I’m a campaign changing the stigma


around who they are and then also a question that I would have for you kind of is like Brandon Flowers doesn’t I’m a


Mormon Message and what impact does that have on a certain type of community or Jeremy Jones a professional snowboarder


with long hair who listens to rap music does one and all of a sudden it’s like what kind of impact does that have


because I remember there was that document leaked or something from the church about the people who were pulling


away from the church like they had this big circle around John delin is like the biggest sure person to take people away


but yeah but that makes me curious on the other side at that same time who are the people in the Mormon messages like


that were pulling more people in yeah yeah um you know it’s interesting


because we um specifically with Brandon Flowers um we


weren’t allowed to do any advertising around his he he said I just want this to be fully


organic and he he did extremely well he did extremely well um he was one of my


favorite artist of the time I mean the killers are huge especially I mean not only in the US but internationally too


we thought it gave us permission to listen to The Killers On exactly that was your pday pday soundtrack um yeah so


so he did extremely well we would have just basic run-of-the-mill people do extremely well there was an African


gentleman who did sculpture that did extremely well when we put money behind


him and yeah it resonated with with what people were looking for and you know we had people with special needs um special


need children um on the Spectrum or something that did really well but I I would say it it kind of caught me by


surprise the types of individuals that performed really well in in the campaigns really that it it was just you


know somebody next door it’s your next door neighbor right somebody that you could really um link arms with and you


felt like you could really relatable very humanistic you know what the one we tried to show the most maybe even knew


this person at the time because he was a black guy that was a bishop in London oh


we showed that to everyone CU I don’t know who he is but I know who you’re talking about it’s in Europe they’re not white yes like we are a World Church you


know that was what we tried to show so I I know who that I know who that person is um but like they were they were my


mission covered uh London South so it’s like the temps comes in and splits London in half


and I was all South and so a big portion of the main part of London and like uh


I’m trying to think of the what’s the one park I’m trying to hide Park like hide Park chapel and


everything and the main Central London is north of the temps oh and that be he


was yeah that’s cuz he was hide Park Hide Park Chapel but I I always thought on my mission cuz I I feel like my


mission is the first place I got interested in marketing because of what you guys were doing oh interesting I just thought I was like this is unique


I’m noticing you know the way that they’re going about this so well and and maybe and I don’t know if I’m going to


take us in a new tangent but like the church rebranded right and like so like


maybe talk us through like I don’t know if were a part of that where if you were still at boncom at the time but that was


a a major 180 from what had been the case for 10 years you know 10 20 years


absolutely yeah that uh that was right before I went to dotera because I was over the the marketing for North America


for them for three and a half years but prior to going that’s when that was changing and we had we had I was over


the social media for for mormon.org at the time we grew up from from 400,000 to


5.2 million and then we we get this hey we are oh we’re shutting this down we’re


doing something different here yeah and and again Kudos again I believe in being


preed I believe in Revelation and I think good things have happened but from a marketing perspective when we’re known


as being Mormons taking the sales out of taking the wind out of sales exactly ripping that rug out from underneath you you


know that’s the first initial thoughts it’s like all the SEO all the things that we’ve been building up um but again


there’s there’s great things happening and um specifically when they thought about this as you guys are probably well


aware we wanted to become more Christ Centric right and come to Christ and and


Church of Jesus Christ so it made sense why they did it and you know I don’t


think we’ve missed a step um from a marketing perspective I I still think we


have a lot of people who refer to us as Mormons and um so anyway that it can be it can


be questioned whether that’s left a gap in the online um space of what people


will find when they look for that term right yeah so sure because they’ll probably find now a lot of people use


the term Morman that are dors right like John dein’s podcast uses that that’s


going to more pulled people in the other direction and there’s still some friendlies out there um for example I


run a podcast called Mormon Life Hacker excuse me not a podcast uh a a Blog I


actually didn’t change it I I created a second name that is Latter-Day Life Hacker but Mormon life haacker still


draws people in and because again I I didn’t I felt it was best not to abandon it and um you know I I don’t feel like


I’m going against you know anything that was asked of us but there is something to be said about about responding to


people’s uh searches well and and it’s and it’s the entire history of our


church like I mean it’s in the name of a main book of scripture that we use you


know like it’s it’s been associated with the church as long as it’s existed so


right right so yeah yeah your transition you know to dotera what was that like


yeah the transition to dotera was interesting um and my as you mentioned


previously you know I I am I I like to think that I’m um really cause-based


that that really revs my engine so um dotera much different right they are a


multi-level marketing or a direct Mark network marketing uh company here in Utah one of the best by the way I would


say I wouldn’t work for many of them but but they I believe are salt of the earth people the people who founded them and


the people who um work there have nothing but wonderful things to say about them um I will even say their


product is good and they were growing you know over a billion in North America and I was asked to oversee some of the


the marketing um with that company and so I thought I’ve probably got just based on my age then which was uh late


40s early late 40s at the time I thought I’ve got you don’t look you look like you’re in your early 40s still oh yeah I


was late 40s and I said I’ve probably got one more kick in me to do something you know and and so I was there for


three and a half years loved my time there um at the end of the day though they have something that’s very


cause-based they have a philanthropic arm which is wonderful um I got to work with a little bit I wish I had a chance


to work with it more and I might still be there I like to say that dotera is kind of like Marriott when it comes to


every Marriott hotel has a book of Mormon in it every Utah home has Z Tera essential oils in it exactly there’s yep


there’s got to be someon everything yeah I grew up with a very good friend of mine in high school her and even post


high school but her her mother was very involved with the organization oversaw a


lot of relationships in Asia and yes like grew up very clo close to her and


her mom and it was just like you know it was an awesome opportunity for them and their family


like dotera completely changed their family’s life absolutely and and I will say this the community that many people


find in organizations like that are unlike anywhere else I’d been one thing I noticed from a social media


perspective was the church would get x amount of engagement right on social


media dotera would get 3x the amount of Engagement so really I I I would not


have guessed that I would not have guessed that mlms are kind of like a religion they are to many people that is


their people um you know if you go to Convention um it’s very similar to General Conference for a member the


church everybody gets togethera exactly you’ve got track to Mecca yeah you’ve got a lot of things happening and so


again they’re doing wonderful things in the world have nothing nothing but great things to say I will say though I I had


that cause-based hole in my heart that was there for three and a half years and so for sure so I had an opportunity to I


I previously mentioned radiant yeah um so I had a chance to go back to a sister


company of boncom which is the radiant Foundation uh the radiant Foundation I


think is very aspirational and its desire it’s literally a nonprofit it’s


under the DMC structure but it’s a nonprofit so um we’re able to to to


leverage that nonprofit status to enter some doors that we wouldn’t otherwise be able to enter but there’s there’s two


main efforts I would say underneath the radiant Foundation one is known as the faith in media


initiative um just talking about that briefly as most of you know when when we


have the media on one hand and faith on the other a lot of times it’s this yeah right the media doesn’t understand all


the faith or it’s click for controversy right it’s like we need the clicks to make the money right um or we don’t


fully understand what a certain Faith tradition believes like the bahai or Muslim beliefs or Jewish beliefs or


Christian beliefs even for that matter so so because they don’t understand it


they make us assumptions or they’re on deadline so they don’t reach out and ask for clarification and because of that


why a lot of just don’t do marketing right like you don’t see Jehovah’s Witness or Scientology or the Catholics


doing as many campaigns as our faith does so it’s very unique yeah yeah it is


unique that way and so the goal of of faith in media is really to help those


two parties understand one another better right and break down those barriers that are causing faith in


general to be reported inaccurately or um or purposefully Mis misconstrued in


media um and and then the other half of that piece under radiant Foundation is


Skylight which is what I’m working with now I’m the executive director of Skylight and our goal is basically to


help the Youth of the world connect to a higher power regardless of what that higher power is for us we call it God


Christian based God or other religions even call it God but it could be um you


know whatever the Jewish equivalent or the Muslim equivalent or the bahai equivalent is because we we believe that


navigating life’s uncertainty is tough it’s something that everyone faces


specifically though in your younger years when you’re dealing with anxiety loneliness um self-esteem issues right


that are let’s be honest largely caused by social media social media we believe


the device that we hold in our hands causes problems we also believe it can be a solution to the problem we’ve


created an app called Skylight it’s also it’s web app iOS Android we also have


social properties around that that help the Youth of the world to to connect with a higher power but specifically


through a mental health lens right the anxiety the loneliness if they want to deal with that we believe that it’s more


than calm or headspace can provide we believe there has to be a thread of divinity in that to really truly Center


yourself and and make the change you need and we also realize


clinical you know there’s depression there has a place yeah and and even medication right at times but but based


on a personal uh uh well a person’s mental health Journey if you can catch it early on and if you can create just


like we go to the gym right for our physical health if you go five days a week it’s better than three days a week


well if you’re able to do an affirmation a meditation a prayer spiritual yoga or


spiritual movement or listen to spiritually um focused music We Believe


those are the types of activities that can really align people in a way that will help keep them spiritually well


over time and so again a very big audacious goal and our team is small but


but truly believe we can make a difference uh because we call them gen xennials and you guys are in this


generation right gen Z and Millennials right where people 18 to 35 um we we truly believe


um that if we can make a difference with this generation you guys are going to make up one-third of the workforce by


the end of this decade so by 2030 you know in less than literally seven years


you guys are make up one out of every three people that are uh working at a Starbucks or Corporate America and if we


don’t start stop the the epidemic that is plaguing young people right yeah it’s


going to be Ser it’s just going to compound yeah and we’ve got to figure out a way to really address these issues


our our thesis statement is we can do this through connection with divinity


and ways that that will help you create that centeredness that you need in your


life oh I love that and I I I think you guys are well on your way to that I I know when I I saw you in crbg the other


day and we were talking about Chris Carlson’s involved with radiant too and we we’re in the same neighborhood and I


didn’t realize that you two were together until fairly recently at least at the same that same company but yeah


actually Chris back back in 2014 that seems like so long ago but he he helped


do that world’s largest live nativity and again that eventually became light the world yeah so kind of cool that’s


awesome so like what you’ve kind of went through your whole career journey in the


last like 30 minutes we’ve been talking how how you obviously Are Family Man Too


like how does how does family fit into your life and how do you mix personal professional do you keep them separate


do you feel like you have good balance how do you you know how how do you manage all of that together yeah so work


life balance and and the the myth that that is yeah you know I I spent multiple


years specifically in the agency where I think I ate slept drank breathed that


and that was a that was a form of success um and um took my eyes off the


prize I think some of the things that matter most and because of that ended up in a divorce um I learn through that I


I’ve come out on the other side I’m happily remarried and we we have ours in mine yeah hers and mine um and and it’s


it’s going great but yeah I think I I do think that there are some you know there


are some red flags that I saw that I’m a better person now because now I know I stepped over that line in some way shape


or form not spending enough time not focusing enough attention and because of that you know relationship suffer and so


you know what were the boundaries you’ve set up now to maybe protect yourself from red flx in the future yeah yeah so


definitely time there there are times that I work 10 11 hour days still I


would say those are the exception not the rule um when I’m off the clock I


really try to do my best to give laser like attention to to my family um


because again if you think about about the amount of time you spend with your co-workers versus your family during your working years it’s just amazing


signicant especially with youth and young kids and they grow up and you blink and and they’re grown tot and so


so being able to I think focus on those things I also think redefining success for me was important oh yeah expand on


that yeah cuz um and I see this in in younger entrepreneurs who you know it’s


what they drive and it’s the paycheck they bring in and I’m not saying that’s not important and I think I went through


that phase I would expect everybody that’s an entrepreneur or has a desire to achieve something in their life will


go through it um hopefully they don’t go to the point maybe that I went to right


that caused relationships to break but um I think being able to say success at


the end of the day for me is when I’m on my deathbed I’m not going to wish I had


sold another widget or done something you know from a from a I won’t be


thinking about the people at work it’s like who’s going to be at on you know near my deathbed and attending my


funeral that’s your legacy that you’re behind right because you know what what’s written on your epit half you


know when you pass away or in your obituary that’s like you said your legacy and love that line from Hamilton


right um the musical if you guys have seen it but you know I think everybody


thinks about their legacy you know what are they going to leave behind and who will remember them in five years and 10


years and what will they say about them and what are the kind things they’ll say and what are the other things that


they’ll say so um you know at the end of the day you know if I drop dead from a


heart attack today somebody else would jump into my current role and do some things better and maybe some things not


as well but but at the end of the day yeah it’s like who are the lives you’re really impacting and it’s those people


that are closest to you that way I love that I’ve had a slight existential crisis with that lately in my life even


where my wife who we do not have kids we’ve been married eight years and my wife quit her job about a year ago to


start a business and I had encouraged her to do that yeah uh because I did it and it worked out well for me and now I


have an office I have employees that I got to pick so I like them and I like spending my time at work with my staff


where my wife is sitting at home grinding and building this business alone and I remember building my


business alone but having my wife yeah there a lot of the time to support me where I’m not there to support her as


much because I’m working on my my own um and me and my wife struggle with


infertility as well so then I know she’s at home in her own


thoughts alone thinking about that all day where i’m very easily lost in the


work yes um and I think that you hit it right on the head when you say when


you’re home you have to separate and as an entrepreneur or not just as an


entrepreneur as a specific personality type which I have uh and I think we


probably all have entrepreneurs have it yeah it’s hard I wake up in the morning and to be honest first thing I do is


check my email uh before hard to not let it be all consuming yeah especially when


you own it and your next paycheck does yeah you know rely on if you do check your email on time and make sure you get


some well and things that you’re dealing with too um not to beat a dead horse but you have other individuals livelihoods


that depend on us I remember it fluid specifically you know when we had 20 to 25 people it’s like if I don’t perform


if I bring in that next client if I don’t do this if I don’t do that not only do I negatively impact the people


relying on me from a family perspective but those that are at work and their


families that rely on them yeah something I said this morning responsibility in my head at the gym was


why is this so hard sometimes and then I said to myself it’s because I have 12 mortgages yeah right I have 12 mortgages


and I have this many mouths to feed is the way you almost have to look at it yeah absolutely when you run a business


but um yeah I think also redefining success


is critical because for the longest time I was defining success based off of what


I had seen which was success is your car successes money your money your


house it’s the comparison game and uh we know comparison the thief Keeping Up


With the Jones is very real and I think in in Utah Jones are so rich yeah Jon’s


goodness always always one up in everybody the Joneses are um but I think


in Utah it’s very cultural too I think and for whatever reason uh in our


religion with being per perfect or whatever you want to we get together


every week want to put a name on it there’s a lot of ConEd yeah for sure and and one


thing one thing that helped me redefine that was I thought to myself there will always be somebody underneath me me


whether that’s a paycheck whether that’s level of car whether that’s house size whether that you know whatever it is and


there will always be people above me yeah so at the end of the day um you


know I just thought to myself let’s what brings you Joy I think that’s another thing right because at the the older I


get the more simple I’m becoming and I used to I used to think gosh people that


spend time in gardens and doing stuff just simpletons right but the the love


that yeah the older I’m getting it’s just the peace the Tranquility taking a


hike you know up big Cottonwood or provoc Canon or just some of that where


it used to be I need to see Jon’s name on LinkedIn X number of times or in the Press X number of times it I I think


that the more simple you become and you realize the value in the the simple the


essentialism if you’re familiar with that term right just really divesting yourself of things that don’t bring you


Joy or value you and focusing on the things that do yeah I know that’s awesome um maybe to change uh or tangent


to wrap up we have maybe some rapid fire like tip questions yeah what one of


which would be like what you have a lot of experience in the influencer space a lot of experience just in in marketing


but especially in like Partnerships you know part part bringing two different entities together for the most part what


what makes a good influencer program and what makes it fail as


well yeah just some quick thoughts there great question um number one if it’s


transactional it will most likely fail what do you mean by that um if it’s


literally hey I charge $6,000 for a reel and you need to pay me for that um where


I’ve seen the most Synergy sorry for the buzzword but where I’ve seen the most


good things happen is when somebody’s values or preferences align with the


brands so whether that be with a church right I’m an active member of the church therefore I believe in this and this and


I’ll put it in a brand Centric way out to my followers or I love this oil or I


love this product or whatever and it does this for me and if they say that from the heart if they really believe it


if you’re not just paying them to say it then that will come across much differently than hey a promotion yeah


this is hashtag ad how do you get people to do that cuz you still want to compensate them if you’re working with


big influencers nobody’s doing anything for free right sure sure sure one of the


things that I found is you you start um number one smaller scale um and I’ve


I’ve worked with M micro influencers more than Macro for the majority of what I do just because you can figure out who


really is in it for the paycheck or who believes in the product and they need the paycheck don’t get me wrong but


product first paycheck second and then you can grow with them so the campaigns that I’ve done outside the church I


would say the the majority of the people that I’ll continue to work with are about 15 to 20% per campaign and then


their followers grow you know in number and therefore I can pay them more and


those are the long-term relationships more brand ambassadors even than influencers because they ongoing


partnership you know you also recomend like getting a sell versus or uh more


affiliate codes or links that they have and they make money based off of how much revenue they bring in based off of


a $6,000 police poster reel which one of those would perform better the affiliate


one yeah I would I would say yes I would say for the most part understanding your question if if they have something in it


because they get a certain amount if you just pay them whether it’s X Y or Z amount versus hey if if you really think


about your content and you’re invested in your content and you could make more if you’re charging me x amount for this


reel yeah but you could make y amount which is above x amount because you really think through your content put


your heart into it um 99 times out of 100 I’ve seen that do better now that’s


a little tricky because sometimes they just want the guaranteed paycheck but their heart I’ve seen traditionally is


an in it they’re doing it for the transaction but I think it’s a good place to always start at least with


influencers and I was in the influencer space for like four or five years before we got into scroll I think it starts at


that finding the Affinity between you know values it’s the values the values of their brand values of the other brand


now what happens later when those values don’t line up yeah you know yeah that’s


very interesting because from a brand perspective um think of nonprofits specifically the church right there are


some names in the news today of individuals who have been very closely associated with the church that have


large followings either online or in person or both that now do not align


with the values specifically of the church so distancing is taking place um


and that’s why you have to be careful you have to be careful of who you align with and who you have represent the


banner of whatever your your organization brand is because because


are taking a chance I I would say personally I would say the benefits far


outweigh the the the detriment um because I would take a hundred people


speaking for my cause and aligning with my cause than the one outlier that doesn’t but know that you’re going to


have some of those people if if they’re promoting your product your cause your effort yeah there are some people that


are going to you know um start using Young Living ESS IAL oil instead of


dotera right the competitor helicop he flies exactly exactly so so there will


be some of those but again I would I would say overall if you can get a


coalition of people talking for you you’ll have some outliers but it’s it’s worth the cause yeah and sometimes you


don’t really have a choice either like you might just have this product that is fantastic that a lot of people love and


people talk about it very often because they’re a fan of it but nobody they’re not getting paid for it necessarily and


then one day that person all of a sudden does something completely against it so my example would be like eight


passengers where she not NE she’s not necessarily getting paid by the church


to say hey I am an advocate for the church right she’s not an influencer for the church but she just is an advocate


for it because she believed in it for so long and now she’s caught up in it regardless as an influencer for the


church that is Fallen away right not Fallen away but has has done something I


think most people in or out of the church would say you’re crazy that why did yeah why did you do that why did you


do that that that’s not right so how do you deal with that that’s one question I’d have on the uh is how do you deal


with controlling the narrative yeah and that that’s that’s a very good question


um and and I’ll mention Tim Ballard here as well that’s one thing that’s happening right now it’s current yeah uh


Tim uh former I believe President of operation Underground Railroad o anti-


human uh slavery um stepped away from the organization but has


recently um seen himself being distanced from the church or the church dist Meda


releases and they’re deleting all of his stuff on their website now now that’s one thing I take Umbridge with I I I


would come out and say a relationship did exist if it did go ahead and say it


did exist but everybody changes everyone evolves and if somebody is doing


something that doesn’t fit the role of the organization say you know what it


did exist and um now this person is not doing something that we see as being you


know within the fold or within our community standards I I’ll put it it


that way yeah um I’ll put it that way so but but to say to say that a


relationship never existed you know I question the validity of that because truly something did exist and and to be


able to say you know what that relationship was in the past which I believe was in the official statement


from the church I think that’s most accurate hey a relationship did exist y


currently it doesn’t um to delete the stuff um makes sense I think from a from


a um PR PR perspective but but I think it makes even more sense to be able to


say hey guys we are doing this we’re divesting ourselves we’re stepping away


and because there were things that existed we’re now scrubbing those yeah makes sense so to control the narrative


it’s more you say this has always been our stance this is what’s happened and


yes there was a relationship but now we’re distancing ourselves instead of trying to avoid or hide yeah if you try


to WIP wash it or it never existed first of all truth I think is always the best


the best way to go right and so to be able to and I’m not saying anybody’s being not truthful here but I am trying


to say um always start with the truth say what happened and then if you need to take actions like scrubbing stuff off


your website totally get it because for yeah just we had SC SEO purposes


themselves yeah yeah we’ve had bad apples at companies that you know their CEO will call us and say you got to


remove this person and remove everything about them just because we don’t want to be associated with them anymore right


and that’s totally fair for yeah former employee or whatever it’s like please get them off our website so um I I think


uh it’s a good maybe transition and maybe a final fall like follow-up


question kind of pulling in everything that we’ve talked about you’ve worked in


agencies you’ve worked as a consultant on yourself and for other companies and influencer marketing programs you’ve


also worked in house so like how do you compare the three what’s your favorite how for someone starting


in marketing where would you suggest starting um maybe to tie all of that


together great question yeah um and and everything has their their benefit and


their detri right yeah yeah pros and cons to everything so for sure love I


loved the differentiation of what I was able to


work on from an agency perspective every day seemed like a new adventure you’d bring in a new client or a new project


with the same client and you know the brief was different the the kpis the key


performance indicators for each one was different and so that really to be able to deal with that differently every day


and think left brain right brain left brain right brain I think was incredible um and so so loved I love the agency


speed too younger when I had more adrenaline and I could do things uh you know I love the speed buyers need to


hear this they have 30 30 customers right now each wow good wow that’s incredible good for you guys um it it


also is tough though because again it’s easy to get things out of balance potentially and that’s what I found in


in my agency days um being inhouse I


think is is great too because again you get to see the long sustained effort on something to really


do something I think meaningful and that’s what I was able to experience with uh you know boncom mormon.org back


in the day now coming to Christ and some of the the campaigns we did and even now with radiant right with the Skylight


effort yeah um being able to truly see difference and you can literally almost


palpably see things different month by month right in the people you reach and the way that that things are moving that


way so that’s great so in-house is wonderful from an entrepreneurial perspective or solar preneur perspective um it it’s


great a lot of different pressures exists there right yeah and again I I


truly haven’t I don’t think been a an entrepreneur or solar preneur because it was probably more in my agency days but


again just the the sheer pressure you felt as we discussed earlier for not only your family but for the families


that rely upon you and like where’s that next paycheck coming from and am I going to be able to make payroll and some of


these other things were were always you know creating the ulcers that that I


dealt with back then I need to I need to get an MRI or something you better have


good insurance good insurance right because but but again there there’s there’s something that comes with that


that um the adrenaline again the adrenaline rush I think and being able to say you built something I think for


for you guys specifically to be able to say we built scroll right something that again when we talk


about Legacy that should be part of it that whe whether you continue with it in the future or decide to go your separate


ways or one becomes partner and buys the other one out whatever you decide to do with that you can always look back with


pride on what you have built yeah yeah right yeah no and we’re and we’re Super Lucky we we have built a pretty amazing


somehow made it four years together you know coming up on five right no we and


the fact that you said that my dad sold his company a year and a half ago and I


watched him build it from the ground up 18 19 years I I remember him paying me


eight bucks an hour to build stuff in his office just to like put stuff together for him so that he had a side


table um and I went there last week because they’re closing down the office


because they’re selling it they’re they don’t need that office anymore because they have a headquarters somewhere


else and I was just you know looking at stuff being like maybe I’ll take some of


this put them my office and I am not a Sentimental person and my wife was


looking at me like why are you so sentimental right now you care so much because it’s true that it it was Legacy


it wasn’t about the company it was about watching my dad work hard it was about watching him build something it was


about him being at my soccer games you know like absolutely teaching me how to


create that same life of freedom but hard work and I think that that is a so


true that in any business capacity whether you’re internal solopreneur


agency whatever it is like the type of Legacy that you leave for your kids and


for your future it’s everything is is huge it’s absolutely everything and and


thank you for sharing your story and how you got to where you were at today we


appreciate you coming and being on guys yeah it’s been great um how can people connect with you and find you John yeah


yeah so on the socials I’m usually Dao D yej okay um LinkedIn of course love love


being on LinkedIn and sorry young guys I’m still on Facebook um I think we’re


Facebook friends yeah that’s true still doing the Facebook thing but Instagram I actually got off of Tik Tok um with some


stuff so um but that keeps me entertained beyond anything else so so


love that platform but yeah so find me at Dae on LinkedIn die awesome awesome


that was good thank you again John for coming on that’s a WP all right sessions thank you thank



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