In the latest episode of Scroll Sessions, host Dan Page delves into the entrepreneurial journey of Ben Perkins, the innovative mind behind An Collar, a brand redefining the modern dress shirt with its super stretchy, stain-resistant, affordable, and comfortable designs. Ben’s journey into entrepreneurship started unexpectedly from his teenage years, where he initially ran a successful soccer cleat review website, which he eventually sold. His venture into revolutionizing dress shirts stemmed from his dislike for traditional dress shirts, combined with the inspiration from athletic wear’s comfort he experienced while living in Hong Kong.

Perkins shares how &Collar filled a unique market gap, appealing to those seeking both style and comfort, demonstrating the brand’s dedication to solving a widespread consumer problem. The company’s growth, from its grassroots beginnings on Kickstarter to its thriving status today, exemplifies the power of addressing personal problems with innovative solutions.

Ben’s story provides valuable insights into the importance of product evolution based on customer feedback, the power of storytelling in marketing, and the significance of solving real-world problems. He discusses the challenges and learnings from launching products like &Collar’s stretchy dress shirts and soccer cleat reviews. His journey underscores the entrepreneurial spirit of identifying gaps in the market and creatively solving problems.

This episode of Scroll Sessions highlights the intersection of personal passion and entrepreneurship, demonstrating how a simple idea, rooted in personal frustration, can evolve into a successful business. It serves as an inspiration to aspiring entrepreneurs, encouraging them to pursue their ideas with determination and to remain adaptable to their customers’ evolving needs. Ben Perkins’ journey is a testament to the transformative power of innovative thinking and persistence in the ever-changing landscape of entrepreneurship.

Transcript

:01[Music]

0:09so uh Ben Perkins I have Ben Perkins on The Scroll sessions podcast today we’re excited to have you Ben thank you for

0:15being here um Ben Perkins is an Innovative entrepreneur who founded an CER uh modern clothing that is super

0:22stretchy stain resistant affordable and wildly comfy and I have a couple pieces myself and it is I like it’s what I wear

0:29to church every Sunday well thank you for supporting I love it um initially driven by his dislike for traditional

0:35dress shirts he started his entrepreneurial Journey as a teenager running a successful soccer cleat review

0:40website which she eventually sold perkins’s idea to revolutionize dress shirts came of the age of 13 inspired

0:47for the comfort of athletic wear he experienced while living in Hong Kong his Venture into creating more comfortable functional dress uh shirts

0:54filled with filled the unique Gap in the market particularly appealing to those who sought B style and comfort today his

1:01company stands as The Testament to his dedication and solving a personal problem that resonated with a wide

1:07consumer base and an car is now thriving man I need you to follow me around Dan

1:13you you did a did a lot of research was like oh my gosh I am cool I’m very cool

1:18you are cool man I love it you are very cool well thank you for doing that yeah no you’re welcome man no it’s and it’s

1:25good for uh people to just kind of get some background if they’re not familiar with you know you you and and an caller

1:31so tell me about an caller and kind of like what put you on this path to entrepreneurship it seemed like from a

1:38young age and I can I think relate a little bit to that like you loved you know maybe being different

1:45and wanting to just be different than what your peers were doing so you know that is how I describe my older brother

1:52who’s only who pushed me on the entrepreneurial path okay I love fitting in yeah yeah I’m the sort of so you

1:58commented when I walked in that I’m t like you yep it’s like hey if it was up to me I’d be like 61 so people don’t be

2:06like oh he’s really tall y uh style I’m never the one to go crazy out there and

2:14so yeah I would say I’m probably not a typical entrepreneur here here I am

2:19saying I yeah I like to fit in tell you I’m different yeah for sure uh and that

2:25you know I I didn’t plan on becoming an entrepreneur so you talked about the two things I’ve basically done one was

2:31soccer CLE soccer cleat reviews and then and callar so the the soccer

2:38reviews you know I I guess to answer your question it’s not that I want to be

2:44different it’s just that I want a solution to my problem yeah uh and so with soccer reviews the way that started

2:51was I was wasting all my time looking you know I could tell you everything about soccer on the planet it’s it’s a

2:58little bit unfortunate cuz it’s like oh I use all my brain power on something that’s not particularly important

3:06um and I was watching just crazy amounts of games and studying everything about

3:12soccer cleats online and I remember when Nike and Adidas were you know every

3:18marketing campaign they’ve ever done and my parents bought my first ever high-end pair of soccer Cates when I was 12 it

3:25was 200 $200 pair of cleats it Wayne Roy uh Wayne Rooney’s boots that were

3:31supposed to make you kick 15% harder and 20% uh more accurately is just like Ben

3:36The Jet Rodriguez for sandlock yeah totally and I you know I’m lapping it all up I’m like this is true yeah this is amazing yeah and my parents bought

3:43those cleats for me and then two months later Adidas came out with their cleats for lonel Messi where you could change

3:49the studs on the bottom like I need these yeah totally uh and they’re like well your cleats are still perfectly

3:55fine we’re not going to buy you new pair a new pair and I was like well that’s a big bummer because I need these cleats

4:01uh and so I started doing like odd jobs to save up for $200 so I was scrubbing

4:07toilets for three bucks here I was you know just random things doing what you need to do watering the neighbors plants

4:14for five bucks here like okay I got a month in I’m at like 30 bucks I’m like

4:19okay this isn’t the way and my brother who is a web designer he was early on

4:25he’s like I’m going to set you up on a WordPress website you just blog and just write about soccer cleats

4:30and you know maybe someday you get some money for Adidas or Nike will send you the free cleats I’m like great yeah uh

4:38so that was the start there the whole idea was I needed new cleats this you know me spending

4:46thousands of hours blogging and writing about soccer cleats could hopefully get me a free pair of cleats and my math was

4:52wrong in my head where it’s like but it worked eventually though yeah it did and uh that was my favorite Journey so you

4:59were talking about a dispersed team for scroll yeah we ended up having 18 writers um wow you know kind of spread

5:07all over the world and got way too many pairs of cleats and uh made you know

5:13actually brought in some Revenue yeah totally and sold that business and it was really really fun that’s amazing man

5:20well and especially at like more or less a young age to like think think about doing that be prompted by your brother

5:27like go through that process it’s so cool and like I um we had Brad Parker on from private auto.com and he had a one

5:35of my favorite pieces from that episode was he he spoke about the best like more

5:41or less ideas come within five feet of you right because usually it’s uh more

5:49or less to the masses something that can be marketed you know fairly decently and if you solve that problem it’s probably

5:55a problem if it’s within 5et of you at all times it’s probably a problem that other people have too oh yeah so I you

6:02had you know mentioned that you might ask that yeah and I was like H I don’t

6:07know if I agree and then I thought about and color I’m like oh it’s within five feet of me it’s on my body on your body it’s on my body so you know what he’s

6:14right it’s within whatever three inches yeah uh and so yeah going again to a

6:20problem is at the same time I think it was actually at one of the ideas to make

6:25money so that I could buy the cleat is at the exact same time so a 12-year-old uh I was like hey I hate my dress shirts

6:34I’m required to wear dress shirts on Sundays to school functions my parents signed me up for catian to learn how to do forks and

6:40knives and dance and it’s like man these dress shirts are horrible they suck the wor and looking back at it I think I was

6:47just a 12-year-old kind of in puberty and I’m like I was the problem no I’m blaming especially like you you and I

6:55like we’re we’re just tall and you were probably tall at like 12 well like I was was I’ve always been the tallest person

7:01in the room always been the tallest person in my class so it’s like clothes just haven’t necessarily fit well for me

7:08in my entire life you know I’ve always had to wear 2XL because it gives me the length but it doesn’t give me the width

7:16whatever you know uhuh so I had the exact same problem and the fabric was horrible because I think just a straight

7:23you know like cotton it almost if I had to describe it back then it was like sandpaper yes and I’m wearing it and it

7:29shows all my sweat embarrassingly to the cute girls in the room totally and I’m like well this is the worst thing that

7:35could happen um and that’s great when Under Armour was kind of getting big and if you remember they had the turtleneck

7:42yes I used and I used to wear that I play soccer it was cool and uh so I’d

7:48wear it to soccer I’d wear it I found any excuse to wear it I remember wearing it under dress shirts cuz I thought it

7:54was cool and I mean it’s embarrassing looking back at it I apologize to my parents I’m like they must been

7:59embarrassed about me yeah but yeah it was like that fabric was so awesome the you know was spandex is a synthetic

8:06fabric and I was like What if I can make this a dress shirt and that was that was the idea and

8:14so the first I needed scroll back in the day to do some branding I designed on my

8:19family’s singular desktop computer on Microsoft Paint the logo it was called

8:24it was called wiah sweat and so the idea was under arour dress shirts was the pitch deck so that was 2008 so I was a

8:3313-year-old and I tried to get you tell me you tell you said you weren’t different but like 12 and 13 year olds

8:39don’t think like this normally you know like I I I I want to give some credit where credits too well thank you I and

8:47again it wasn’t like to make money it was no you’re just like it’s a problem I just want a better dress shirt for

8:52myself and yeah so I lived in Hong Kong and and

8:58uh I was close to factories in China I call it local factories um and my allowance didn’t

9:07cover for minimum order quantities 5,000 Under Armor dress shirts I was like well let’s go back to the soccer idea uh so I

9:15did the soccer thing and then I had to wear a white dress shirt every single day for two years in the Philippines Y

9:22and it was hot humid I had to wear that crappy dress shirt again I was like I came home and I said you know what let’s

9:29fix this problem yeah and I was in going to school I was at the University of Kentucky and then at Utah Valley

9:35University playing soccer and so I didn’t have the time to get like internships and jobs totally and so I

9:43said you know what I’ll just do this as like the school projects when they say hey do a marketing plan yes for a for a

9:49company so instead of doing it for Nike as much as I love Nike it’s like I’ll just do it for my own and for sure I can

9:55kind of piece the two together and so that was 20 17 and I started getting the samples

10:03they were horrible the first couple samples cuz I I took a dress shirt that I liked the look of I said this looks

10:09good and I wish I was technical but this is literally how I like the look of this dress shirt here’s Utah Jazz Jersey

10:16let’s like take this fabric together and put it together and so that that was the

10:21uh that was the process and so we got two samples back I remember the first

10:27one was straight spandex I think like in Incredibles you know Mr Incredible where it’s like stretchy yeah you can pull it

10:33all and it’s like this is crazy it was probably flammable it’s like oh my gosh and this is probably not the one no

10:39seriously and then the second one was like a tablecloth yeah it didn’t stretch at all but it was super lightweight but

10:44the most wrinkly product on the planet yeah I’m like okay let’s go back to the drawing board just go in the middle of

10:50these two I don’t know how to describe it any other way yeah and then uh we landed on our first product with that

10:56second sample uh and so I had the product but I needed

11:02some help with branding so my sister was at BYU’s advertising program she had a

11:07group of three yeah the ad lab are you an ad labber no I just know I know of it I I went to BYU but I I I I had a lot of

11:15friends that went through the adlab you’re good yeah so they were all ad labers yeah and uh they needed they

11:21needed something on their resume too so they could get real jobs and I said hey I’ve got this shirt idea yeah can you

11:28design a logo my Microsoft Paint logo wasn’t going to cut it so they they put together some stuff and it’s like hey we

11:34all like each other I just decided to keep doing it together and launched on Kickstarter in August of

11:412017 and I remember some of your initial creatives because I got married in 2016

11:47that was like the year after I got married I was still very I was neck deep in my photographer content creation

11:55entrepreneurial Journey at the time and so I was creating content for a lot of different brands but I remember specifically some of the

12:01initial visuals that you guys had come up with for the kickstarter all we probably needed your help no it was

12:07super cool and like the way you guys described at least the problem that you were solving was unique at the time well

12:14you know those those were the fun days where it’s like okay we got to get really Scrappy yeah and I

12:20remember again it was us in the ad labers and then some you know the only

12:25people we could afford were students as well and so there was this production company and I say that because just probably

12:31group of buddies who had cameras uh and we thought it was a good idea to do it

12:36all in one shot where if you know Dollar Shave Club like about the same time that

12:41all that stuff was popping it was very in it’s like okay we don’t want to do shortcuts yeah and so we forced this

12:47poor actor who was going to school to memorize like a 90 second script we filmed July was J July afternoon so it’s

12:56probably 105 degrees hot super hot in Utah had one sample and he’s wearing it

13:02uh so we had to make it work and we wanted to do it in a culde saac with the

13:08mountains behind us so we went to Draper yeah where you used to close to where you used to shoot these and on the back

13:14of a truck had a dolly that wasn’t working or something and we needed to push the truck because it couldn’t be in

13:20sound because the audio was going to mess with things yeah and anyway so the

13:25camera is on the back of the truck the guy’s walking towards the the camera and we’re pushing the truck this way towards

13:31the end of the cuest sa and again it’s I mean I cannot emphasize how hot it is and we needed to knock on every door in

13:37the neighborhood and say can you please not come out of your house for for an hour two hours while we’re just yeah

13:43we’re filming we we didn’t pay you but please for college students uh and so

13:48that was the first bit of creative and oh my gosh yeah we launched on Kickstarter we did 20,000 yeah uh we

13:56quickly jumping we’ve launched three kickstarters every Kickstarter has been 20,000 on the dot wow you would think I

14:02would learn and you’re saying 20,000 units I wish $20,000 okay where yeah

14:09it’s very much break even and each time we’re like you know what we have a way bigger customer base we can learn

14:15totally we’re gonna we’re going to go to 100,000 every time or 500,000 we saw some of you know some of your

14:21past uh people you’ve hosted on here and they’re doing Millions on Kickstarter it’s like we’re going to do that and

14:28every time $20,000 so if anyone out there wherever the camera is wants an

14:33expert on a $20,000 Kickstarter no more no less I’m your guy yeah Ben is Ben is

14:38the guy for it a $20,000 Kickstarter expert that’s awesome that was uh

14:45basically how we started it was just supposed to be a Resume Builder and get me into a better dress shirt and like

14:52and what was the experience like and how did it feel to like finish that

14:57Kickstarter at least the first first one what did that feel like for the first time CU that was kind of like maybe

15:02realizing what you had planned and done all this work for uh I’d say the two

15:08things I felt first really scared the reason I say that Beyond you know I dumped all my life savings into it yeah

15:17uh I I hate self-promotion yeah and I’m sure that you know yeah it’s like

15:23especially your talking about a Content business you’ve got to put yourself out there and say you have to hey my cousin

15:29and McKay please buy like I know we haven’t talked for a little bit but please buy uh you’re throwing on

15:36Instagram you’re going thrown on back then Facebook it’s like hey Grandma

15:41please buy and Kickstarter back then and it might still be like this people felt was like a GoFundMe where it’s just a

15:47straight up donation but I’m like you are buying a product I’m GNA give you something like we’re g to send you something yeah but but I remembered

15:53feeling super sheepish where I think a lot of people thought I was going to have a good career yeah and here I am

16:00like I’m going to be the stretchy dress shirt guy yes yeah totally uh and so very very like embarrassed and scared

16:07because I was like if this doesn’t work out they’re all right and I should have just done some boring job um so that was

16:14the first one and then the second one is you realize who your real friends are and how many real friends and supporters

16:20you have when you do put yourself out there like that because I remember I had buddies I was like you’re you’re my

16:26friend but I don’t I didn’t think we’re best friends who hopped in trucks with me to hand deliver orders that’s amazing

16:32it was one truck I should say I make it sound like I’m have a fleet of trucks it was like my single truck I thought it was a good idea to drive up to Weber

16:38County yeah from Oram which is and hander yeah and hand deliver where I was

16:43like this is a cool customer experience looking back at it it was like 9900 P p.m. at night and like so for everyone

16:50uh it turns out Dan and my wife went to school together so it’ be like that level of connection where you and I

16:56don’t know each other someone in between does yeah and I’d show up at your doorstep at 9:30 and be like hey uh you

17:03bought this on Kickstarter and I thought it was going to be really cool but it just was weird uh well but but it

17:09probably at least I mean at least from like my perspective probably pretty memorable though for those that did

17:15experience it I would assume and it’s funny because we just I was just talking to Scott Porter just barely about brand

17:22experience because he’s like the Guru at it but like maybe I’m wrong but like I

17:27assume that had some sort of impact you would like to think it had impact whether it was scary and like scarring

17:32or positive but I will say it had to have been unique cuz is the middle of the day I remember so we broke it by

17:38County we probably had 200 orders on the $20,000 on Kickstarter and it’s like

17:44okay we’re going do Weber County one day do Salt Lake County one day do Utah County one day because again all the

17:50orders were basically there maybe we had three we had to ship and I remember it was a University of Utah football game

17:56and the person we knock at is at the game and it’s on theing ring doorbell it’s like hey uh we’ve got this you’re

18:02like that is really cool customer service I’m at the the used football game and I whoever was a quarterback of

18:08the time was like you know go Tyler Hunt L and I will say they did message and

18:13they’re like they knew the quarterback of Tyler Huntley were uh or the quarterback of the year was Tyler

18:19Huntley and so where some of that stuff was totally on the Fly who knows maybe it had a positive experience it’s just

18:25fun to look back at yeah no totally I don’t know I I feel like it did how now

18:30how did things evolve to what they are today because now like you’re on Amazon now you obviously sell like DDC off your

18:37website like how did that evolve from the kickstarters and what you’ve done into what now exists today as an caller

18:44yeah and I’ll say excuse me I don’t know why I lost my voice last time no we’re we’re both

18:50we’re both with our voices I to say I feel okay but my voice is gone

18:55um so I I always feel like it’s helpful for when people to say numbers so I’m going to throw out all the numbers throw

19:01the numers look that makes it easy so then people can say oh I can relate to this step of the journey or this step

19:07yeah um so 2017 we ended the year at 30,000 so we did 10,000 on Shopify from

19:14September to December yeah uh I remember thinking I was like oh my gosh I am a Titan of business yes that Black Friday

19:21we did 2,000 in sales yeah and you’re like holy cow like oh my gosh amazing I

19:26am the world’s best business person and we did 30,000 in sales year two and again this is all while going to school

19:33and fulfilling out of my then girlfriend now wife’s garage because she had a big

19:38garage uh while she was going to school uh we did 70,000 in sales and we

19:45were doing student pitch competition so that’s where you pitch to like local Venture Capital groups and private

19:50Equity groups and you’re pitching against other students your business uh

19:56we never won I I am the world’s best second place winner just like $20,000

20:01kickstarters if you want to know how to be a runner up at pitch competitions I’m your guy yeah uh but I remember that

20:08there was a group uh who were the first backers of Skull Candy big you know

20:16success here out of Utah and a couple other really cool Brands a couple of their Partners were like hey are you

20:22trying to raise money because this seems like a real deal we’ done a 100,000 in total sales when we pitched them

20:29and I was like no I’m telling the girl who so the girl I dat was dating and was

20:35engaged to lived in the same house in casville her whole life yeah and I promised her I’d move her somewhere

20:41really cool and we were talking East Coast I was looking at jobs internationally yeah uh and I was like

20:48no I’m planning on just running this until school’s out then I’ll go get a real job yeah and they said you should

20:54probably reconsider so I went home and my dad brings out an XL Spreadsheet cuz cuz that’s that I mean that’s very much

20:59him and he says look you only have to sell X number of units this is way better than those other jobs so I went

21:06back to my fiance like hey uh forget what I told you here’s a spreadsheet yeah there’s a spreadsheet my dad made

21:12it let’s let’s reconsider and let’s stay let’s move to Vineyard Utah yeah yeah uh

21:17very exotic yes uh and anyway so we decided she was very

21:24supportive we said we’re going to start fulltime in 2019 so right when I graduated June 2019 me and one of the ad

21:32labers who didn’t like his job in New York he said can I join you full-time as well so we started officially full-time

21:38June 2019 I feel like it’s been longer than that but it really hasn’t yeah I mean it

21:44feels on some days I’m like wow it’s been a long time where oh that was yesterday yeah totally so yeah 2019 we

21:51started full-time that year we did 300,000 in revenues two of us and then

21:572020 hit and that’s when Co happened and the first thing that people stopped buying and wearing were dress shirts

22:04it’s like oh my gosh I it’s the such poor timing it’s like we decided to go

22:09all in on a dress shirt company and everyone’s stuck at home if I if I had a

22:15like a athleisure company yeah to the Moon uh and I’m I’m I’m stoked about it

22:21but jym shark yeah seriously yeah no kidding and it’s like but March 2020 and

22:27April 2020 Jordan are like gosh we are idiots we we shouldn’t have done this full-time yeah

22:33and we sat down we’re like okay this can go two ways we can either shut up

22:41shop and you know cut our losses or we

22:46can swing big we can swing big and hope that whenever Co kind of lets up and

22:52people start buying drad shirts again we can be the one drad shirt company that was stupid enough to invest in marketing

22:57and to keep going yeah that on the end yeah we’re going to be the you know the main brand that people are

23:03considering and so we took a big bet we leaned really heavily into video so kind of the long form funny videos it’s one

23:10thing to say we have a Under Armour Nike Dr fit dress shirt and it’s like okay how is that going to look but then we

23:16wanted to really show it so that’s why we leaned into video and we said look we’re going to show that it stretches we’re going to show that you can pour

23:22Gatorade on it yeah throw ketchup on it throw ketchup on it comes off and so

23:28that was a big bet in April and that year we ended up doing 2.1 million I I will say where was that April 2020 April

23:362020 we decided it’s just like right in the heart of the Pand I can remember where I was April 2020 you know yeah

23:41everyone can cuz you’re stuck at home probably we just had we just had a baby yeah credit to you for having one during

23:47that yeah well yeah we had a baby in was J late January and we were just like

23:53then Co happened but April anyways keep going on your story the three view were all stuck together yeah no kidding and

24:01anyway so yeah we decided to do video we launched it in May and I mean things

24:07went a little bit Bonkers at least relatively speaking Yeah so we ended the year 2.1 million where that is a big

24:14glamorous number the ash risk I have to put next to it is we spent 900,000 in ad spend oh I don’t

24:21doubt it and so it’s you know we had made money every year because we didn’t have money to spend for sure and that

24:27was when and all of they were called merchant cash advances all this Capital

24:33it you know basically Equity free capital is Flo floating out there yeah oh yeah it’s

24:39like and DC is going crazy it’s like hey take money take money take money so we took W flyer Shopify Capital PayPal

24:48Capital where it’s just to just float the ad spend basically yeah it’s like hey we’ll give you 200k you pay back 15%

24:56of sales every day yeah uh uh and on the 250k you end up paying an 50k in

25:03interest yeah and if you grow slowly then it’s fine if you grow fast you pay it back quicker so it’s like oh there’s

25:10no losing here let’s do it I will say looking back it’s like it’s a hamster wheel it where you’re kind of stuck but

25:16yeah it did help us get to 2.1 and spend like crazy to get there uh and then

25:21we’re like oh we have to have make cash as well so that was a good learning experience I was like okay we did the

25:27big swing yeah now we’ve got to run around the bases maturely yeah for sure and like

25:32actually figure out the whole inventory situation matching with how much you’re spending on ads and everything yeah who

25:39knew uh who knew cash was a thing yeah it was it really felt like Monopoly money for sure and then we did 6.7 the

25:46next year just leaning into the same long form creative uh and that year you ever deal

25:52with like maybe getting into this like Logistics issues especially I feel like everybody was dealing with Logistics and

25:58shipping issues yeah it was horrible yeah where the port of you know LA or

26:03Long Beach they had those container shs with yeah and it’s crazy to you don’t think about when a package shows up on

26:10your doorstep as a customer or consumer it’s like that had to come from some Factory had to go on a boat had to be on

26:16a container be unlock unloaded had to go to a warehouse somewhere yeah and then

26:22someone had then be sorted and pick be sorted someone had to pick and pack it and then drop you know give it to

26:28carrier and then that UPS carriers or FedEx or USPS has to take it to their sorting Center and then someone has to

26:34put it on their truck and they have to drive their truck to your house and drop it off it’s like it’s crazy and it’s

26:41nuts and it’s crazy that one Jeff Bezos said let’s do it in two days oh and then

26:47completely changed everybody’s expectations you know you know as a

26:53consumer it’s like that’s the best thing ever and as a business owner it’s like he really ruined me yeah yeah royally

27:00screwed up everybody else’s idea but you know that’s what innovators do you know

27:06yeah no kidding I I can’t imagine being in the in the room when he’s like we get we’re going to do this in two days oh

27:13yeah and and make it happen basically you know I’ve heard people say that’s the real like Eighth Wonder of the world

27:20the Amazon Logistics Network that somehow I mean and now I I you can you

27:27can take it’s almost like you you understand now and it’s you know I can order a toy for my daughter and it

27:35somehow gets there I order at 9:00 a.m and I’m like it gets there at 6 p.m. the same day now it’s like how does happen

27:41yeah it’s nuts I so yeah we uh you have stuff that get stuck in we had stuff on

27:48the container we had had a Tracker and we asked the you know the freight forwarders so the person sending it

27:54we’re like okay where are we now it’s okay we’re about 93 and then a day later it’s like okay we’re both

28:0062 my word we we were like can we get jet skis and like can we unload it our

28:06can can we go free our our container from the boat and so yeah horrible

28:12Logistics issues were it’s like I think we would have done quite a bit more that year the learning is we kept spending

28:19when we were out of stock and it’s like how stupid as that we I mean we were burning money okay I spend all this

28:26money to get d onto our site but then your size along with 50% of the sizes

28:33are on a boat in California it’s like and then there’s a decent chance you won’t come back again at first we were

28:39like oh maybe this is like scarcity we’re like Supreme and it’s going to make you really excited but we found

28:45people are not emotional about a dress shirt it’s like interesting I mean at least I don’t think about I run a dress

28:52shirt Brandon I don’t want to think about dress shirts uh where you know I think shoes are cool and I’m thinking

28:57about shoes I’m thinking about cool Nike things where dress shirts people

29:03typically buy to serve a purpose rather than to serve a fashion serve as a fashion piece and so if we couldn’t

29:10deliver it then then you would just go and buy the next dress shirt yeah that’s available then you’ll wear it for the

29:15next few years yeah maybe we’ll be lucky to get you back so yeah we had horrible Logistics issues we brought on a super

29:22awesome coo because it was me running it and I’m horrible at that yeah trying to do

29:29and wearing all the hats we brought someone who was at Skull Candy and who was at Trager grills and had awesome

29:36resume yeah and said hey can you find us better factories and make sure that it gets to our warehouse and then ships out

29:42on time so we made sure to address that we’re not perfect we’re much much better now than we were and In fairness I think

29:49the whole world is better now than we were and our uh 3pl is actually I’m in a

29:54box here it’s a momentum shipping company oh right here yeah yeah totally in the building with con Fitness

30:00probably just like 50 yard from yeah like a hop jump right there so we’ve fulfilled out of there since October

30:072019 so longtime kille right in my neck of the woods yeah that’s amazing and and

30:14you’ve obviously expanded past dress shirts now like talk to us about that experience getting into other other SKS

30:20you know yeah and I guess part of that story I finish at

30:262022 2022 we did uh 10 million so yeah the year

30:32before we did the six then the 10 this last year was a little bit soft I think

30:37we’ll bounce back and we fully intend to yeah this last year we did 12 which like

30:43it’s fine uh but slowed down a little bit because a lot of issues inside but in terms of the growth story so 100% was

30:51the white dress shirt 100% of Revenue was the white dress shirt in 2017 and 2018 we launched a blue shirt

31:00you know talking about learning experiences we bought the same number of blue shirts as white shirts but like what customer buys as many of the same

31:07blue color as they do a white shirt where you as a consumer may have two or three white shirts to every one blue we

31:14didn’t I mean we didn’t think about that so we saw it on Blue for a long time uh 2019 we launched ties because I was like

31:21hey that’s an easy up sell yep you know we got you to buy it’s the product sphere and it works with your ideal prob

31:28yeah you’re Bu you’re buying a white shirt you’re probably pairing it with a tie a lot so we added ties uh then we

31:34added in 2020 pants we probably moved a little too prematurely there where it’s

31:40like hey Lululemon’s pants are awesome yeah I’m GNA be the first to say it yeah

31:46we kind of rushed that one where we came out with a B I’d say a b product not an a right yeah you know I’d like to think

31:53our dress shirts are a for sure and reviews say that but our pants it’s like okay hey let’s kind of make a cheaper

31:59Lulu pant yeah and that was the way we approached that and that was a poor decision from product development where

32:05it’s like hey we should have maybe leaned in harder and taken more time yep take take more time and make a better product

32:12again I think pants was the right idea cuz it was a hot category and pair it

32:17with shirts and our customer we found wasn’t the sort of guy who was sophisticated and

32:25pairing like from different Brands think yeah wasn’t more or less like yeah maybe

32:31fashion oriented or fashion first yeah where and not to say all of our customers weren’t but it’s like most of

32:36our guys you were talking about wearing your shirt on Sunday it’s like yeah look I’m gonna wear it for three hours or two hours or whatever I’m gonna take it off

32:43pretty much uh and I’m just gonna wear the same thing and I’m gonna pair it with pants so the the idea was right we

32:50just is like hey let’s come out with a cheaper Lulu product where every other

32:56product we’ve ever come out with in my opinion it’s like let’s come out with a great product and price it in an affordable

33:02way where the pants at first is like yeah so all of that to be said where we

33:09are today 60% of our business is white shirts wow uh which we love it’s

33:15nonseasonal okay load up on that inventory people who are in Utah people

33:20who are in Florida people you know all over the world you wear white shirts to funerals church church weddings I mean

33:28all those big all the things yeah uh pants is about 10% of

33:34business uh pattern shirts and solid shirts kind of like what I’m wearing now

33:39makes about 20% of business 15% of business and we filled the rest with ties and socks and suit jackets and

33:47polos so that’s amazing man and it’s it’s been cool to see like the more or

33:52less the evolution right I uh it was interesting talking to um Cory Stevens

33:58on episode isn’t live yet but had Cory Stevens on and talking about kind of the evolution of going from socks to shoes

34:05and and the evolution of what Taff will become now and uh it’s interesting you know ev

34:12Everything is almost like you’re there’s some internal but there’s also external pressures that help make those changes

34:19and and stuff and how how did you guys match that with your marketing more or

34:24less because your marketing also evolved over the last several years right and you’re messaging and how you especially

34:31as you get into these new product categories yeah and we hope that it continues to evolve in mature where it’s

34:36like hey our customer base is now seven years older than when we launched totally um so we hope it continues to

34:42evolve and reflect that but I I would say we had shiny object

34:48syndrome where it’s like again talking about the pants and it’s like hey let’s push this let’s push this where now it’s

34:54like hey the white shirt is what we sell dependably and so we had this interesting back to

35:01back to square one where almost all of our ad spin now is filled with with um

35:09assets that are white shirt campaigns it’s we we that’s what we want to be known for yeah for sure and then we hope

35:16that you as a consumer migrate to the pants and socks and ties and polos see

35:21all the other after a good white shirt experience so our ideal customer journey is hey we spend an ideal we would spend

35:28less than 50 bucks but let’s call it 50 bucks right now we spent 50 bucks on Instagram and meta to acquire you and

35:35you’re seeing white shirt ads it’s like hey get a white shirt we’re in stock it’s a great product get that and

35:44then you know 21 days later that’s typically when that second purchase happens if it does happen which it does

35:50for about half our customers it’s like okay now this is the time that you either just stay as a white shirt

35:55customer or that we can Mig migrate you to become an and callar customer and so

36:01Mo I would like to think that most of our marketing and messaging now is about that 21 days where totally we we’re

36:08again we’re back to 2020 and 2021 where it’s like you know what don’t reinvent the wheel you’re going to see very

36:13similar ads there but hopefully it’s completely different as soon as you receive your product and email flows uh

36:21and the sort of stuff you’re seeing in retargeting campaigns it’s like hey we have this we think you had a great experience did you know we had we also

36:28do this stuff so that I’d say post purchase is hopefully where the biggest

36:34Evolution has happened yeah no I and I would think so especially with you know

36:39I I I think of my own experience with other maybe similar and salary Brands

36:44like built or things like that where I got into built because I like the way the t-shirts fit because of my long

36:51torso right and now I’ve graduated into other you know their product sphere and

36:56but it’s very similar Journey where you know you kind of you own what you’re

37:02extraordinary at and hope the rest you know obviously not hope but like you

37:07Market the rest and it and it eventually makes sense yeah B belt is a great brand

37:13and perfect example of that they get you in with the drop cut tea it’s perfect for my length I wear it all the time

37:18when I’m not wearing end color yeah yeah I would wear it every day if I didn’t own a drir brand uh and it’s like so

37:25yeah that that’s a really good example yeah no totally and now looking towards

37:30like the the future of where you guys want to be right I think like how have

37:36you kind of or how you trying to navigate more or less that ad spend to like brand experience because eventually

37:44like ad cost just continue to rise and rise and rise across all the platforms like how are you guys specifically

37:49addressing some of those things well I wish you could answer that question for me Dan Dan Dan’s the real expert here I

37:57can tell you what we’re trying to do yeah yeah yeah I can’t tell you it’ll work so yeah just talk to me about what

38:03you guys are doing we can uh get back together in a year and you can yeah no for ask about this like I think like

38:08especially in cpg like I mean iOS 14 and like I mean everything just changed in

38:14terms of tracking in terms of tracking the customer Journey like talk to me about how you guys are engaging your

38:20your customers I will say I think we benefited from being horrible ad buyers pre iOS 14 or you didn’t matter because

38:29you talk people were talking about the cookie apocalypse and it’s like we we were so late and so bad at you know at

38:35the California Gold Rush yeah where where it’s like oh my gosh if we were back in 2017 the hey days yeah the hey

38:42days I’m like I could have made way more money yeah we would have yeah we would we were so bad where I mean we were

38:49horrible back then so where everyone else saw this big drop off it’s like well we were bad then the the cookies

38:55haven’t changed us so totally it’s a that’s good news we’re horrible but in terms of things the things we’re trying

39:02to do now uh we really haven’t been able to

39:07scale ad spend the past three years so you know we’ve almost doubled in Revenue

39:13but digital spend has stayed about the same which I mean from a bottomline perspective is cool yeah but we’re not

39:19planning on this being a lifestyle business it’s like hey we want to get we want to supercharge it back to 18 this year yeah yeah we’ve got to find those

39:26unlocks and I think creative is the big thing where 100% we we would sit on you

39:32know the big three minute video and hope that like this horse would pull us all the way yeah and it for sure helps and

39:39we want to get back into reinvesting into that but I think our main thing is it’s hey let’s get more granular with

39:45what wins and what doesn’t iterate on winners and then feed the ad account that way and so for example it’s like

39:53hey let’s set an arbitrary quota for ourselves feed eight new pieces of creative into the account

40:00each week and maybe that’s the wrong thing or right thing to do but what we mean by that is okay this podcast clip

40:07is performing really well this is a real thing yeah we use podcast Clips on our ads yeah I’m sure where it’s like they

40:13perform really well and we found that this podcast clip is going nuts so it’s sucking up all our spend and it’s just

40:21it’s working really well so we you know the average asset for

40:27probably ends up getting like 5K the winners more than that this podcast soaked up like 50k in spend in a 14-day

40:34period meaning it was just performing yeah it’s like okay and we didn’t act on it but what we’re trying to do is saying

40:41okay if this podcast clip the first one we’ve ever introduced into the account Works let’s go do more podcast Clips

40:48instead of it just being me let’s test me versus McKenzie who one of our employees versus Mark who has long hair

40:55versus Jordan just all different okay let’s with now we’re testing the podcast

41:02now let’s try a black shirt versus a white shirt let’s try a different background it’s like yeah can we just scale those

41:09creatives those creatives until we bleed them dry yeah totally and then you you do it again and you’re feeding so uh

41:16just creative output is probably a very big one Let’s test a different hook and

41:22you know let’s look at thumb stop ratio maybe the whatever you call it the

41:28screenshot before you start a video of Dan as the first guy versus me because

41:33it’s analytical it’s like for whatever this is why Mr Beast literally has like scaled his entire thing because he was

41:40so obsessive about the thumbnail about the hook about how many Cuts about like

41:47all those things like and now granted even with all those analytical things

41:52the content itself had to be good right but like now it then it becom comes about tactical you know it’s kind of

41:59funny cuz I was listening to I’ve Loved Gary Vee I have this LoveHate relationship with Gary ve as I think a lot of people do and I think he’s very

42:06well aware of that and leans into it um but like he like one of his things the last like two years has been this like

42:12content Arbitrage you know he always comes up with these little quote colloquial quotes that he holds on to for like two years but like he’s like

42:19you need to be putting out 50 pieces of content a day and like he’s not wrong

42:26but at the same time it’s like it’s it’s it’s a little insane but it does work

42:31you know and about not only keeping like the heart of the content good but also

42:37like really being tactical about the strategy on the platform that you’re advertising on yeah you know I like what

42:43you say that and I think that’s where we have to be careful like we and caller

42:50not people because you already talked about it you you’re aware of it where it’s like okay we’re not just making 10 new creatives for 10 new creative sake

42:57because like if it’s garbage I I could have 10,000 iterations and it’s not going to work exactly where I like what

43:03you said there where okay we got to make sure the core content is good and then you’re just hoping for the little 10%

43:0920% unlock here and there but if it sucks it’s like a thumbnail is not it’s

43:15a thumbnail is not going to fix it exactly yeah so we’re trying to get better there and then I’d say our big thing is and I kind of touched on it

43:23before is let’s we want to age up where like let’s just reflect who our real

43:29customer is and who the bigger customer base is yeah where if you go on our

43:35website the reviews like the customer submitted reviews that have photos yeah

43:41honestly just very normal guys and I say that in the best way because I’m a normal guy yeah yeah like I don’t wake

43:46up with grand Ambitions I wake up looking at the ESPN app to see yeah my favorite players did the night before in

43:53the NBA and our customers like that is just a very lovable guy who takes a

43:59picture of himself with horrible Lighting in a bathroom it’s like why are you doing that but it’s just he likes

44:05the product it fits well totally and having our website kind of reflect that

44:11where we’ve always you know from zero to 12 we’ve always said you know we hate

44:16dress shirts we hate dress shirts and I mean it’s not wrong it’s not changing and all of our models are 24

44:25year old guys who are very fit yeah and very hip if we’re using that word yeah

44:31it’s like you know the last person who would buy a dress shirt that model like honestly it’s like they would be rocking

44:36some awesome fear of God Supreme something much cooler than us and for sure I’m not

44:44afraid to admit or embarrassed to admit that there’s a lot of Brands cooler than us it’s like hey let’s just go find the

44:5120 million customers who are regular dudes yeah and like let’s let’s age up a

44:57little bit so you’re going to see on our website soon and one of this is also for

45:02straight more diversity yep more more diversity and probably just you know 35y

45:09old dads yeah it’s like that’s our customer that 35y old dad might work at a bank or he goes to church on Sunday or

45:16whatever and he’s wearing the shirt because it fits well and then he’s gonna buy five of them because he doesn’t want to go to other brands and they’re

45:22affordable so it’s like hey can we help customers and potential customers see

45:28themselves right now more than we are so I love that in the next probably three

45:34months it may seem gradual to other people but it’s a pretty like seismic sh sh for you guys yeah so like customer

45:40feedback is obviously like super important to you guys and you’re making shifts because you’re noticing obviously

45:46the reviews that are coming in the demographics have probably shifted because you’ve been around seven years now people are seven years older so like

45:53talk to me about how customer feedback has been you know it’s seems like it’s been really integral to your decisions

45:59that you guys have made yeah we’ve we’ve definitely had good times of listening to customers and bad times where you

46:06know the pants was one thing it’s like we don’t listen to anybody there Jordan and I we said this is how the pants

46:12should be let’s do pants yeah and we didn’t take any feedback but the white shirt right now it’s probably gone if

46:19you bought a shirt in 2017 on that first Kickstarter versus if you bought it today delivered to you

46:24it’s call it four days uh uh that shirt has gone through probably 15 iterations

46:32wow where and that’s the reason it’s our best yeah where and it’s it’s not saying

46:37all feedback is correct feedback but you know when we get enough customers say the cuff is too tight I can’t put my

46:44watch I can’t put it over my watch it’s like let’s loosen that up it’s easy y uh

46:50same with the shirt being a little bit too short at first it’s designed for my body and your body where was really long

46:55long yeah uh and it’s like oh not everybody’s 65 let shorten it up a little bit and we shortened it up too

47:01much and it’s like okay let’s find the happy happy medium um so that that’s on

47:06the product feedback probably 2022 was a bad year of

47:11listening to customers it’s like hey we’re making we’re making hey yeah yeah we’re going we’re why do we need to

47:18listen where last year we put out a survey as very as a great subject line

47:24it was so spammy like you had to click it yes where it said uh $300 want to get

47:30paid $300 an hour oh that’s awesome show your open rate was oh it was incredible

47:36and it was a survey inside that was a pretty you know in-depth survey yeah where it was asking everything from age

47:44occupation it was the lowl stuff but then a little bit deeper yeah or high

47:49level I should say high level stuff and then got a little deeper it’s like what other brands you shop at how much do you

47:54spend on that brand per year what other dress shirt brands do you consider what is your religion how many kids do you

48:01have so for you got in the psychographic graphics he just got deep it was like

48:07hey let’s find out because in 2017 2018 2019 it’s easy to say at least

48:12anecdotally who my customer is and who our customer is because like oh I

48:18emailed 10 Den pages today on customer service yep I know who you are yes exactly or we kind of lost touch with

48:24that when it’s like okay now we’re 250,000 customers it’s a lot different so we sent we sent

48:30this out we so we were offering a free shirt in exchange for responding and the way we got to the math is our shirts are

48:35basically 50 bucks it took 10 minutes 10 minutes time 6 equals an hour yeah so

48:41you’re getting $300 an hour yeah 50 time six and uh our response rate was nuts I

48:48was just hoping for like 500 responses we got 6,000 within so we had to give all these free shirts and it’s like oh

48:55my gosh no doubt it it paid off it was really rich data but I was coming in I

49:01was like we don’t have those shirts we’re coming into Black Friday we need pe oh gosh you did it right before Bo it

49:08was stupid there were a lot of horrible choices uh so this is a cautionary Tale

49:13But it was it yeah it ended up being really great data and so now I could

49:19tell you and that’s a little bit why we’re saying we’re going to go off this this Evolution where it’s like hey I

49:25always thought our customers were 25y old guys it’s a 37y old guy with two

49:30with two kids and you know what his favorite thing is the NFL and college basketball where where it’s

49:37like when you find this core where now and it’s like oh it’s very well

49:42established let’s let’s hit that rather than finding little pockets here and there yeah and it’s and and that just in

49:50of itself is a huge customer base at least in the United States you know oh yeah it we we’re excited it’s like hey

49:57there are more ordinary guys out there than totally than any other type and we we love ordinary guys we we’d like to

50:03say we’re extraordinary shirts for ordinary guys and we say the ordinary guys in the most like positive way

50:12possible it’s hey this shirt is just supposed to get you through your kids spitting up on you yeah you know you

50:20showing up to work when you have a meeting and you don’t really want to be there and otherwise you’d be sweating and you look good or you’re showing up

50:26to your buddies wedding and he chose to get married in July and you’re standing out there for pictures want to be

50:32comfy and so uh I’d like to think 2024 is the year that we get back to not just

50:39listening to customers but then implementing really good feedback based on that I love that man that’s amazing

50:45and I I think it’s interesting too because I’ve seen like a you’re probably familiar with true classic too but they

50:50have a very similar demographic in that like late 30s you know just look look

50:56for something to you know put on basically that is going to you know keep you looking good but true classic is a

51:03perfect case study I know their whole website back and front because there’s a few things we want to implement yeah where their main one is they’ve got

51:11probably a XL double XL guy he’s a model and he it’s just a gif or GIF depending

51:17on who you talk to I’m a gif guy yeah I’m a gift guy too where he’s standing there and it says the true classic

51:23difference where he’s in a normal tea and it’s really bad it’s like what you were saying to be long enough but it

51:29looks horrible versus a true classic and it shows that it’s fitted and it looks good and without making it like tight in

51:37the wrong places it’s like that is a very very powerful visual so there’s a lot of things we want for that their

51:43demo that they hit you know they’ve they uh we want to be very much

51:48like them yeah no it’s funny yeah because I like I and I feel like I’m in that demo like I’m I’m I’m a tall guy

51:54but I probably got I probably got at least at least 100 pounds on you I’m a big guy too so like but I but

52:01anyways I I resonate with that and I resonate with that message and um I just think it’s it’s so interesting now being

52:08in marketing and you probably see the same thing like being obsessed with one particular thing you start seeing the

52:14world in a little bit of a different way right especially being an entrepreneur and especially being one that’s a little

52:19more like maybe problem Centric entrepreneur where you’re like I’m looking for a problem to solve you start

52:25looking at the the world in a different way and it seems like you did that from a very young age and and Beyond what are

52:32some things that you feel like maybe you’re seeing differently now over the

52:38years the bringing it back to business really fast and not our business it was one of

52:44the best things I ever heard it was Jeff curl so he was a Trager skull C or

52:49excuse me Skull Candy but he’s mostly known as the founder of Stance socks yep

52:54big fan yep huge fan and he said when he left Skull Candy and he was deciding

52:59what to do for his next business all he did was walk up and down grocery aisle or like grocery stores Walmart Target

53:09are those grocery stores or department stores Department stor I Department yeah like Mac or something I

53:14would consider them Grocers or retails Reta yeah so so big big store like Walmart walking up and down the uh

53:22aisles and he said he’s looking for criteria and I could be Miss quoting him

53:27but it was amazing where he said okay what do people buy a lot of what has few

53:32SKS that they buy a lot of what is very boring and uh needs a

53:38paint job and then what has good margins and so he was just going through your talking about looking at the world

53:43differently where he’s going up and down aisles and he said okay cookware for

53:49example I’m looking the pots are all black yeah there could be something but

53:54people only buy those once a year or excuse me not once a year I haven’t even bought one since my wedding so you

54:00you buy it once every 10 years so he’s like no but then you know there’s a brand called carway and hex and hexclad

54:05oh hex cl’s crushing it where it’s like oh you put some cool designs on it you get Gordon Ramsey so exactly yeah so

54:11yeah they’re a great example uh and he was walking up and down he was like one of you should come out with a to the

54:17audience he’s like one of you should come out with a laundry detergent because you know what you walk up and down you buy how many you buy laundry

54:25detergent once a month or however often y all of them have the same bright orange and blue colors yep exactly what

54:30if you just did a black a really Chic black uh modern looking laundry detergent because people buy it very

54:38frequently yep all all the Branded look regular intervals yeah yeah regular intervals and it’s probably pretty high

54:44margin where you make that powder pod for exactly a few cents and you sell it for a premium if you totally uh and so

54:51he did that with socks he said he walked up and down and you know that’s back when the Nike Adidas just the CL like

54:57the Hanes whatever you buy where it’s all white and black it comes in packs of three and and that’s literally it and

55:04you know I get socks every year y multiple socks yeah for Christmas yeah yeah it’s for Christmas and it’s like so

55:12all of that to be said I don’t know if I’m like more cynical now or more optimistic but I look at the world

55:18differently where I’m like is that a good business opportunity do the economics make sense where before yeah

55:24it was very much okay I need to just identify my own problem let’s hope there’s a lot of customers like me that

55:30might have the same issue where Jeff curl yeah totally changed my thought

55:37process where it’s like okay cups or laptops or whatever it’s like is that

55:44there the unit economics good just like glancing at it just looking at it and having those thoughts yeah and so I’m

55:51the same way with ads so like it’s like I dissect advertising like the Super Bowl’s coming up and like dissecting ads

55:58and the campaigns like right now the Michael Sarah and Sarah are putting on

56:03this incredible campaign that they’ve been priming for literally probably like

56:09over a month now and they’re you know getting ready for I I don’t know if they’re going to actually have a Super Bowl ad there’s a lot of rumors about it

56:15but I assume they will but it’s you know all related to that and you know getting Bobby alof involved she’s that you know

56:23uh the only word I want to describe her is weird podcaster um but yeah like

56:29anyways it’s just those things I find fascinating you know and I want to dissect it and figure out like man that

56:35was such a good idea you know such a good idea and like how did they do it and obviously it’s working really well

56:40so anyways it’s been cool well uh how how have you dealt with you know

56:46obviously running a business it’s it’s hard it’s not easy by any means if

56:51anybody says they’re easy they’re lying um and how have you dealt with that you know you’re you’re getting married you

56:57said you know you you and Melanie were doing just shipping out of your garage yourself like how do you deal with all

57:03of those things together there’s ways that you’re try to cope with it try to deal with the work life balance um which

57:11is not a thing I think when you’re an entrepreneur you know talk to me about

57:17that yeah it’s tough I mean yeah in the seven years now we’ve been doing this we

57:22coming up on seven years I guess technically the first prototypes came seven years ago uh it’s like some days I

57:31mean I said earlier I’m I’m the next Jeff Bezos next Jeff curl so I’m just

57:36the next Jeff can say where it’s like I am brilliant this business is awesome

57:41nothing can stop us there’s probably a lot more days where I have said I want to move to Idaho where a place with no

57:48phone service where no one can reach me because this sucks uh there’s a lot more of those days than the writing on top of

57:54the world days sometimes it’s within the same day yeah no yeah yeah seriously it’s within the hour it’s like yeah ding

58:01ding ding ding ding ding you’re I mean you’re bouncing all over uh I will say having a partner both in the business

58:07and then if we’re talking you know life life yeah uh has been really really

58:13great where Jordan on the business side where there’s a ton of things where it’s

58:18been difficult and I can’t even imagine if I had to do it myself or make the decision myself um where I think there’s

58:26like some comfort in another human just being there and being able to relate

58:31where you know I can go to Mel and say well you know this customer this vendor

58:37did X Y and Z and it’s ruined my day it doesn’t quite click not because she doesn’t get it oh excuse me not not

58:44because it’s not she doesn’t almost have the context yeah yeah yeah just doesn’t have the context and she didn’t have to

58:50go through the same thing where Jordan had to go through the exact same thing it’s like hey he was on the exact same call where the vendor said the bo it’s

58:56on boat 993 you’re sold out for six weeks yeah

59:02where there’s that but then separately going back to Mel and there’s things

59:07it’s like hey I like to being be I like being able to relate to you outside of work where you know my whole life isn’t

59:15all down to yeah car and it isn’t all down to the container being on boat 93

59:20right now yeah and she’s done a really good job of you know grounding me in

59:26that way where it’s like hey you know what you had one bad review from a customer yeah it’s going to be okay yeah

59:32it’s going to be okay because guess what we’re gonna go do something fun right now or it’s like it doesn’t really

59:39matter because you got seven where having two partners almost in those two separate parts of life but very clearly

59:46meshed together yeah uh has been really really helpful and I can’t imagine doing

59:52it a lot yeah no that’s amazing I I I feel the same way if it’s like uh Shane

59:57and I’s relationships evolved in over the last couple years and Shane’s my business partner and I also have my my

1:00:05lifelong partner and my wife and we’re both lucky because I think both Shane and I were both very different we’re

1:00:12definitely Yin yin and yang and we bring a lot of strengths to the table we bring

1:00:17a lot of sometimes opposing opinions to the table too but we do fully respect

1:00:23each other and at the same time we have amazing wives and families who are very

1:00:29loving very supporting and understanding which is huge and very blessed to have

1:00:35that because not a lot of people have that you know and like Shane and I spoke

1:00:40in a couple episodes prior about like the story of starting our business and both Shane and I’s wives are both very

1:00:47like grounded individuals hadn’t really understood the entrepreneurship thing didn’t grow up with that and were kind

1:00:55of thrown into to it you know with us and but we couldn’t have done it without

1:01:00them for sure and I don’t think we could have done it I think there we would have done things for sure on our own I think

1:01:06you know with where Shane and I were at the time when we came together but we I don’t think we could have created what we have created without each other yeah

1:01:13so that’s really cool that’s awesome well um maybe to wrap up the episode

1:01:19today Ben I think give maybe some context and advice for people looking to

1:01:26get into the maybe cpg space consum product goods and if they have an idea

1:01:33where do you start yeah uh I can say I’m good at that I’m not good at the scaling

1:01:38and the operating but it’s like hey at the very least I’m good from zero to $20,000 like I said uh I am the biggest

1:01:47proponent for just going for it where it’s like hey you’re investing into let’s call it an MBA burn the ships yeah

1:01:54burn the ships you’re G to learn a lot it’s like hey set aside the grand or two grand or whatever you know just to get

1:02:00things started pretend it was gone that’s what my brother told me I put 20 grand into blue and white collar it is

1:02:06what it was before and he said pretend it’s gone ju you you burn the ships and

1:02:13so I think that’s an important part but it’s like do it uh if you think that there could be a better work glove or

1:02:19better baseball glove or I mean whatever I I only think in terms of

1:02:24consumer I’m not anything else but but but it’s like a better baseball glove

1:02:31yeah you hop on alibaba.com alibaba.com and it connects you to every

1:02:37Factory in China and now they’re expanding beyond that but it’s and you type in leather baseball glove and you

1:02:45type in exact specifications what you want you go and get three prototypes from three different factories that give

1:02:50you quotes and you say I like this one because and now Factory let’s change it

1:02:56a little bit yeah let’s go buy five I’m going to buy 500 units mqs are way down now yes I mean you could buy yeah yeah

1:03:05you could I mean you could buy yeah I mean I could make a sweatshirt just like what you’re wearing you can make it for

1:03:10you can make 50 units of those you’ll pay a little bit more but and then you go and you put yourself out there and

1:03:17you put it on Instagram and say hey friends I’m selling a better baseball

1:03:22glove support me and give it a try and you could sell 500 units or 5050 units

1:03:28or 100 units if you really try yeah and just give taste for it yep and if and if

1:03:33it works and customers like it go for it if not it’s like you just discount

1:03:39things to basically cost you walk away with your money and you probably learned

1:03:44a lot because now you’ve learned how to find a factory work with a factory how

1:03:50to fulfill something because again that’s things you don’t think about where I realized I had to go drop it off USPS 4 p.m. they’re cut off and I had to

1:03:58learn how to print a label and I had to set up Shopify where it’s like hey for a grand two

1:04:04grand you could have a great education totally uh so you learn how to sell too

1:04:09yeah you learn how to sell and it’s like hey here are the benefits this baseball glove will be better for you and your

1:04:15co- at softball league because and it just forces you to think differently uh

1:04:22so anyone who has an idea like just go sell a hundred of

1:04:27those and I promise it’ll be worth it I love that well thank you so much for coming on Ben really appreciate the time

1:04:33today it’s been fun talking with you um where can people connect with you like either personally professionally and

1:04:40where to find an callar uh I don’t know if they want to connect with me personally but uh my handle is B

1:04:48inspirational yeah I don’t provide much inspiration but uh and then and

1:04:53caller.com we’re in lots of different Hol sale stores to we are on Amazon but and color.com spelled out a n d c o l l

1:05:01a r.com awesome and they can connect with you on Linked In too right yeah cool well thank you so much ben

1:05:07appreciate it thanks [Music]

1:05:17man